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Francesco Ciulla 

Hi everyone, here’s another episode of the Talking With series. This is a series where I interview people from the tech world, content creators, CEOs and other people. And today we have Jiri Kobelka, CEO of Tatum.

Welcome everyone and how's it going? Welcome, Jiri. How are you? 

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Jiri Kobelka

How's it going Francesco? Thank you for inviting me. And I'm doing well, I hope you are too. 

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Francesco Ciulla 

I’ve been  really focused on web3 development, the blockchain, especially the educational part, and of course the deployment. And I want to say that I want to approach this  from a very neutral point because I work for a company that is not a web3 company. So this is also a good thing because it makes me very unbiased. 

Jiri, please introduce yourself and then we'll start talking about blockchain development 

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Jiri Kobelka

My name is Jiri. I'm the CEO of Tatum. My background is banking, but about seven years ago, I actually turned to the web3 space. So kind of a very different space from banking, right? I was a core banking consultant, and then I worked for banks on different projects. And seven years ago, we started with my co-founder Sam, we started Tatum, and we will talk about it a little bit later, but this is just very quickly about me. 

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Francesco Ciulla 

Let's start from question that I often get so I would like to have an answer from your point of view. So what is a blockchain on? How do you see that blockchain can be used safely? Let's start from the very beginning. Why did you get so interested in doing this? 

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Jiri Kobelka

Why? I'm not going to lie. So I started because of cryptocurrencies, I mean I bought some small fraction of Bitcoin and a few others and lost some money and earned some money. So as usual and then I dove deeper and actually, with my co-founder Sam started to build on blockchain and learn more and more. 

What is blockchain? I mean, you can read a lot of definitions on the internet, but I have one which is, I think, is pretty simple - especially for developers. I believe it is just a database - which it is. It's a normal database. You can read, you can write, it has little bit different mechanics. Like, for example, if you run mongodb or something like that, it's your private database where you store your private data. And hopefully no one can see it unless you allow them whereas when it comes to public blockchains, you can actually see everything, almost everything. And that's where we see and where I see the biggest value. Otherwise it's pretty much the same database as you guys are using. So it's a bit tricky, it's a bit more difficult to use because it's new and we have a lot of things which I don't think are developer friendly. I mean, we have smart contracts, which are pretty much procedures in normal databases, right? What is different from a normal database is blockchain has static structure so you can do transactions. So you cannot kind of create tables or something like that. You just fill data in a given structure. But other than that, it's… pretty much database. 

It's actually pretty useful for some use cases especially when you want to share when you want to cooperate. Then blockchain is very strong. I can speak more about some use cases you might actually never heard about, if you like that. 

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Francesco Ciulla 

We absolutely do, I just want to interrupt you just to say that I like this approach because many people at least at high level know what a database is, you don't even have to be a developer to know what a database is just to have an idea. A place to store your data and as you say there are private databases, you can make your own instance on your PC, disconnected from the world, and you still have a DB. 

So I'm really interested to hear the use cases. So how can we use it? And I really like, I also love the idea of that smart contracts are sort of procedures because I've studied them also in the past during the computer science degree, and it's a very good analogy I never heard. 

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Jiri Kobelka

Yeah, I mean it is what it is. We have some mechanics inside the blockchain which creates use cases or maybe improves some - sometimes it's really appropriate technology for you. I mean, it's completely fine. You'll have to use everything in your stack. So what is important in blockchain is that you can only add information? You cannot delete. You cannot update. 

So of course you can think about basic use cases like, you know, sending transactions which is what most blockchains actually are doing. Or you can think about some government, like voting systems or basically something where you really don't want to change the history. 

But then there are use cases, not many people thought about, but actually we are working with companies all around the world. We have about 90,000 projects using Tatum. So that gives us a little bit of interesting highlights of what people can do. I mean, aside from exchanges, aside from wallets and, you know, this basic stuff, there are even funny things. Like, for example, the gaming industry, right? So we are I guess maybe you guys are hearing a lot also about the free gaming and how and metaverse, right, and those big things and then you look in and it sucks, it's actually kind of like, I don't know, like a Roblox like 10 years ago and then you don't enjoy it. And the only fun is that you can trade some tokens or something. And that's what I don't believe it’s about - they shouldn’t be successful just because you are using blockchain. I think it's quite the opposite. You actually should build an amazing game and if it's okay, if it's appropriate, if it makes sense, use blockchain and maybe not. 

One of use cases. We are actually discovering right now with a few gaming companies and not actually small ones is. If you have a game on the mobile phone and you can play, I can play with Francesco for example, how the game works is they run on AWS, right? So actually AWS is the hosting for them and if you have 100 million players, it's all the traffic goes to AWS. It will be probably always like that. However, the major reason why gaming companies are doing this is because they need to be sure. No one is faking, they are not influencing the gameplay the way they shouldn't. I'm not saying they're being successful right now, but they're trying and they're investing huge amounts of money because if they fail, normal players will not like to play the game if there are only cheaters inside, right? So they use servers to compute and discover all the cheaters, hopefully real-time. And it's not really working anyway. 

So what they are thinking right now as a one use case would be, what if we will store data on blockchain and actually connect those people peer-to-peer? 

In other words, what if we skip the AWS layer? And now we can because if someone will have, I don't know, sniper rifle, it will be stored on the blockchain. So anyone can verify, whereas right now your mobile app has to go to the AWS check if that person is actually cheating or not and you generate a lot of traffic and it costs the company money. This way, they will actually use your device, mobile phone, tablet, whatever it is. And it's computing power to verify so they don't pay much, maybe nothing really. It's not good for real-time shooting first. First person, shooting games or something like that, something real time, but there are a lot of games which, you know, if we will wait, two seconds that's completely fine. 

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Francesco Ciulla 

It's a very interesting one. So, basically, what we are saying is  that using the Blockchain, you already mentioned, is a couple of times that you have more transparency. 

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Jiri Kobelka

Yes, it can be as and you can actually do peer-to-peer instead of client-server-client, or something like that. You can actually go peer-to-peer client-client. I'm not allowed to say it, but it’s very interesting because in this case the company that has to take care of the cheaters - for them. It’s like a cost. Instead, if you let someone else, like the players, check, and some players, they are really picky on some games, they want to know the people who are charged with cheating. So they can actively and for free check this, because it's their strong interest in finding cheaters, which is maybe higher than the company revenue, because it's like their time and you know how competitive gamers can be. Yeah, of course, you can cheat at some levels at that point, because you have so many people, so many eyes on you. And this is very good. That's true. 

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Francesco Ciulla 

Nice, nice. People are joining now. Hikansha, how's it going? Herodome, how's it going? 

Nice. So, you can also make a separate episode about gaming, because this is something that's always interesting to me. But let's get the into the main topic of this event. I think you are the best person I can ask this.

So what is Tatum? 

Ah so Tatum the way how we started is that I'm a developer and my co-founder is a developer and when we started to build on blockchain we actually realized it sucks. It's super difficult to build anything you have to learn for months. If not years to make it properly, to make it right and I mean, if you go to “hello world,” I mean that's pretty easy but then if you mean something serious it will become really challenging. 

And then you have so many blockchains and all that. So we thought about it and we thought that it doesn't make sense because if you go to any other technology aside from blockchain, it started as a difficult thing, but now we have Frameworks. We have developer tooling for everything. I mean, if you want to build responsive website, it's not like you buy thousands of screens and you just adjust for every screen, right? You just plug-in a framework and it will do it for you. And so we decided that we will do framework for blockchain, and actually it became so successful that really like in two and a half years, we have 90,000 projects live or building on Tatum. And right now we support about, I think, 70 blockchain protocols. And the benefit of the framework is that you don't have to be a blockchain expert. You just go the same way as you are used to as a developer. We had the same developer experience. So with one, two lines of code, you can just solve so many things instead of going from scratch, discovering all the mistakes you have done. And that way you can actually build or integrate blockchain in your app, whether it's simple cryptocurrencies, it's a simple wallet for minting NFTs or whatever it is, or even notifications, smart contracts, whatever happens on the blockchain, you can do it in just a few lines of code, instead of really building for really years. And you don't have to even be an expert or even understand how blockchain works inside. 

I was a developer and I screwed up too, and I can admit that I didn't understand some things relatively deeply right.. But I actually used tooling and that did it for me. So, because otherwise, II would be still writing my first app till today, so we created a Tatum. We have, as I said about 70 supported chains and we have about 600 features inside. 

And what's cool about it is, it's very open to developers so they can always go up in abstraction or down. So if they feel like okay I'm actually very good they can actually go even to the node directly to do whatever they like and then go up so they can save a lot of time on average, they save like 95% percent of time actually and then if there is some features we don't have they can go to the node directly. 

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Francesco Ciulla 

This is very interesting and by the way, one of the reasons why I invited you is basically. In the future. I'll try these live and I really test this on my own, but maybe live is always funny, so we can get more people to get more engagement, not say. So this is like a sort of introduction, like a trailer what’s going to happen in the future, but this sounds really cool. And so, you also said big numbers. So we're not talking about one or two applications. Like 90,000, is that correct? 

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Jiri Kobelka

It's like 93 ,000 actually now. 

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Francesco Ciulla 

At 100,000, you have to do something like a celebration, a party. 

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Jiri Kobelka

Okay, that's actually... we were not thinking about it, but that's actually a very good point. We should. 

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Francesco Ciulla 

So now another question. So why do you think that Blockchain development is hard? 

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Jiri Kobelka

As I said in the beginning, blockchain is kind of database, right? So we already are working with databases for decades now and we already have frameworks, I mean, in Java, you have a hibernate, in other languages you have different frameworks. How do you work with databases? Yes, I mean, 20 years ago, we were in a situation where most of us were actually going to the database directly, we were doing queries directly. We kind of failed at that but it has a lot of benefits sometimes but a lot of disadvantages. For example, if you chose, I mean, there were apps, they started with MySQL back then and then migrated to Microsoft SQL. You had to actually rewrite most of the app, test it again - super difficult. 

The thing goes with blockchain because we have so many blockchains right now. We have Solana, we have Polygon, we have Near, we have Ethereum, we have hundreds of them actually. So which one is the right one for you? And the point is, the business and the world is changing so fast, you don't know. I mean, if tomorrow one of them will die, what will you do? And you cannot predict that this will not happen. 

So one of the difficulties we are seeing is pretty much very similar with what we are seeing with the database is what we have seen with databases 20 years ago, which is exactly this. Vendor lock to one solution. 

It doesn't make sense. We don't do that anymore. Like what is the point? Especially when you are building something, which is more scalable, which is more bigger basically, or hopefully will be bigger. You can't vendor lock yourself to one one one blockchain because it doesn't make any sense. So then what do you have to do? Actually is hire developers, blockchain developers and those and by the ways those are pretty expensive, and pretty rare. I mean, if you go to LinkedIn, you will see like half a million, maybe more people watching and experts. But what we see on the market, it's not true by far. And it's okay, because guess what most of developers are not expert in every single technology they are using and there is no point why they should be, right? So that's why we actually started to do this framework. So we can help people to make it way easier. The other issue is that blockchain has different mechanics, right? Each of them is different. So a lot of developers don't know how the blockchain works inside and sometimes it's actually a big issue. 

For example, what people don't know, in Ethereum, if a lot of people what they do is they are scanning the last transactions, right? What if there is a transaction on my address? So they are kind of watching everything new. 

But the problem here is that for example, in Ethereum, they have something which is called reorgs, which means once a while whatever information was in Ethereum, it can change in seconds. So if you are a developer and you just did some query to the Ethereum blockchain to the database and it will tell you, there was a transaction from Jerry, if you will ask in 10 seconds later, it will be gone. It will not be true anymore. 

So the idea of you know blockchain is immutable is not completely true to some extent, but not many people know this. So surprisingly, a lot of a lot of apps actually have wrong data because they do exactly this because they don't know how it works internally. They don't know it can change. So for example, what we do in a Tatum, for some companies and some projects, they need to be informed as soon as possible, so we fire webhooks with every new event, right? And then there is a second scanner, let's call it scanner, which goes like a few minutes later and checks, if what we have sent is true. 

And then we send again some information that actually this thing has changed but actually not many people know about it and so that's another issue. Why it's so difficult and then it's different on every single chain. People think like, oh, I build something on an EVM compatible chain, it doesn't matter. Because maybe it's even compatible which means the way how you interact with the blockchain is roughly the the same but the thing is, the logic behind it is different. 

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Francesco Ciulla 

It's like saying that MySQL is PostgreSQL. They are almost the same. 

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Jiri Kobelka

Almost the same as well, but it's not the same. Yeah, but people thinks it's same. And then you have basically all the features inside. 

For example, Bitcoin, one of the oldest blockchains, right? If not the oldest, actually. The way how it works is if you think about it, imagine an Excel file where you have just a list of transactions from A to B, one Bitcoin, from B to C, one Bitcoin. But the thing is, if you ask what is the balance on A, you don't know. You have no way how to find out because you only have a list of transactions. The way how you find out if you have to go from the first transaction ever and you have to count everything in. 

And it’s not actually that easy as it sounds. It's not just, I will select all the lines. Actually you have to go through. Just technically, this will take you to build it properly - it will take you months. We have this feature, just GetBalance and it will give you answer. So we're trying to help people to avoid building really basic stuff from zero with all the mistakes we have done of course. And given the fact that we have, you know, over 90,000 project, it’s battle-tested and you can easily just build things. You wouldn't be able to do otherwise. 

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Francesco Ciulla 

Nice. So we have some questions. The first one we already replied to. So I don't know if you want to expand but the question is usage of blockchain in the real world. And I think you already answered, I don't know. If you want to add. 

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Jiri Kobelka

Maybe I can. I can expand one one. Use case just one. So in some countries where, you know, it's not that safe as you know, I mean in Europe, maybe in the US. We have this one use case which is being built by one car manufacturer where they actually are using blockchain for digital IDs of cars and vehicles and then actually it goes beyond that what they are using the blockchain for. You can share the keys over the car. So you can actually run the car for some time. You can lend it to your family members. 

In that country they don't even have a register of cars. So if police stops you, they don't even know if it's your car or you just stole it five minutes ago from someone else. So blockchain in this case actually is very useful because it's a very trusted source of information for everyone and they can actually cooperate with others. 

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Francesco Ciulla 

Nice. And now I think a question you would like, which is how can we make life easier for people through blockchain? I think mostly developers, because developers maybe, I don't know if it's related to development…

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Jiri Kobelka

I mean developers are people as well. I mean we you know, that's I mean, that's kind of the reason why we do this, right? Like we do all of this just to kind of help developers because I strongly believe that blockchain is the future in many many ways. And I can tell you right now that actually, I strongly believe that there are way bigger use cases than cryptocurrencies and even NFTs to some extent. I think, next 2-3 years will be amazing and you will see a lot of movement in this area. 

Especially when it comes to zero knowledge. For example, this is going to be very big and not only because many people think zero knowledge is about hiding transactions. I don't care about that. I mean, there are so many use cases for businesses about IP protection about actually  building decentralized apps with IP protection. We are seeing banks being interested in that, so many things will happen. Hopefully soon. 

But then again developers are those people we care the most about  right now and so yeah I mean that's that's pretty much why we started and I think the first step is to help developers to interfere with the blockchain space and be able to interfere. Not just, you know, oh, let's start learning blockchain for years and then become experts. I mean, yes, that's great. And it's noble, of course, feel free. But also if you want to deliver something, if you want to deliver value, then we have to make it really easy for developers to engage with the technology. And then it's up to them to build next amazing startups, the next amazing companies and help people. We are kind of, I mean, I'm pretty sure that as a Tatum, we don't help people as a rule, the whole world directly. But we strongly believe that actually, we are helping others to make this happen to help others. We have so many people in Africa, building buildings, absolutely amazing apps for people who cannot afford to have a bank or to afford luxury, to have some luxury of being certain about anything. The same goes for South America and other regions, and that's where I feel very strong about. 

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Francesco Ciulla 

Yes I totally agree on this. That I mean we still don't know. So now it's just a leap of faith but I mean blockchain is not just a single technology not just a single movie that you like or you don't like and that's it. 

It's an ecosystem of ecosystems because if I have a single blockchain, it's already an ecosystem. But if you say blockchain, it's an ecosystem of ecosystem, it's not a single point of failure. That’s a technology that can be useful or it cannot be useful and also to link with what you said in the beginning - I really love the analogy of databases. 

Let's think how people were creating apps on databases 20 years ago? Not like now you mention some use Hibernate something specific, but before that people were just you know writing directly in the production of the basic structure of the database. 

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Jiri Kobelka

Yeah. That's how people were doing and this is a more or less what people are doing now on the blockchain to make some tests. Exactly. It's so funny. I'm 40, right? And when you see those cycles repeating again, people are doing the same things again and again. I love it, but it's also like, maybe we can learn faster from the last iteration eight years ago, maybe. 

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Francesco Ciulla 

Yes, I mean, and to be honest, from my perspective, because I've been studying blockchain, I don't know, even 10 years ago in university, but it was more like very non-mature, like more like a theoretical point of view. And now that there is, to be honest, I like that there's been this hype, if we want to take it in quotes, because people are more aware of this. Because at the end of the day, Every technology, it's all about the people and community around that technology. Technology without people that are not using that, it's useless, it's just something, okay, can sounds cool and there are many examples, I think of technology that maybe it’s perfect but if you don't have the support of the people and the communities, the forums that people asking questions in, creating new projects because this is what moves everything. So I'm very excited, and I am with you, in the upcoming 2-3 years. Maybe we will start seeing like music use cases. Today on October 202, we don't know. 

So I'm pretty sure that this is going to happen but we are building this future. We can say it's something very interesting so talking about communities is there a community of Tatum where people are developers? How can they find support? 

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Jiri Kobelka

Yes. I mean we have a Discord community. There are I think over 4,000 people actually so you can get a lot of insights. 

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Francesco Ciulla 

I have a Discord with 3,000 people and they're already going crazy. So 40,000, I don't know. 

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Jiri Kobelka

No, no, no. 4 ,000, not 40,000. Not yet. Okay, 4 ,000. Maybe after this video. But still, yeah, 4,000, but still it needs to be managed. 

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Francesco Ciulla 

Okay, so 4,000, you can't just leave it like that. So especially if I think this is an open community. So it takes some time. I'll also take a look there. And then, yes, so let me reply. I don't know if you want to jump on this, but I got this question, I think. I think I got this around 20 times per day. So I get this one of the questions that I get most often. So I created an article on this. I made a presentation too. And to be honest about roadmaps I'm not a huge fan of the road maps because I think we should learn at our pace, but people keep asking about a roadmaps. 

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Jiri Kobelka

When you go to blog on Tatum.io, you can actually read some guides depending on what you are trying to build. You can also see some introduction articles, we're also working on some more educational content lately that hopefully will go live soon. 

I think if you want to start it's important to decide what your goal is. What is your goal? What do you want to? What do you want to build? What do you want to become? If you want to become rich and an expert and you know I think first thing is just start a bit of learning about how blockchain works overall. I changed my opinions a lot in the first three years to be honest. It took me some time to understand some minor differences. Same for you?

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Francesco Ciulla 

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely we are not static,

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Jiri Kobelka

And then, you know, you have to think about it - it's always good to understand how it works internally to some extent. I mean, you don't have to know how blocks are being signed, even though that's actually learned a lot. I don't think it's important for you as a developer. For you as a developer, it's more important to understand what data is stored in the blockchain, how it works internally, and how gas fees works. And all those things, that's more important. A lot of people think about, you know, I'm a blockchain developer. I should be an expert in writing smart contracts. Surprisingly, that's not really the case. Like, if you think about big companies, if you think about the biggest exchanges or you know, the biggest apps in the world right now, and there are hundreds of developers only maybe very few of them are doing smart contracts. Most of the coding is about actually getting information, getting notifications, getting everything you need as a developer to run your app. Smart contracts are usually one offs or you know, you don't do thousands of them so that would be my advice. 

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Francesco Ciulla 

Nice, amazing. And I like that. Some people in the audience are really curious about this. This is also why we're here. Also tag us on social media so we can also amplify this. I think it's very important if you try. So Jiri do you have some more examples of maybe who actually really is using Tatum or some some examples or maybe a little something that you think that it's nice to let people know so we can get some ideas? 

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Jiri Kobelka

So right now, actually, we have a lot of usage. Right it may be, if not the biggest, actually one of the biggest or the most used developer tooling in blockchain space that gives us a lot of insights. So about roughly 60% of our traffic is gaming and NFT related stuff. So a lot of kinds of games and NFT marketplaces and all that. We have two and a half thousand marketplaces that are using Tatum. Maybe more, maybe, I don't know all of them to be honest. And then about 30 percent is under standard blockchain projects. So basically exchanges, data analytics companies, and wallets and you know traditional fintech companies and then 10% which are those kind of super interesting projects. Guys that are something on the edge cases basically. Guys who are not doing something which is normal or common In the current environment, like this car manufacturer, or like the gaming companies were kind of trying to reduce their costs and actually improve the experience for the blockchain. So this is something you don't see normally or actually company, they're building - city building. Some Satellite Communication channel, for blockchain somehow, and I'm too stupid for that. So a lot of edge cases and smart cities, we have seen some super interesting projects for smart cities and so on and so forth. 

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Francesco Ciulla 

Nice, nice. So we have a question, don't know if you want to reply to these two, so what would be the practice to reduce the smart contract vulnerabilities? I think it's one of the hardest questions? 

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Jiri Kobelka

Look, smart contracts are difficult. Even simple smart contracts are open to vulnerabilities. We have seen hacks, even lately, which are going through pretty standard smart contracts and they lost a lot of money. So my advice, if you build something which is super serious, get an audit. Because those guys are great. 

For you, it's more, yes, definitely educate yourself, educate about the smart contract security as much as possible, but always think about the situation - what if I will get hacked? Because the chances are you will. And then think about, you know, what you will do next? Like, are you going to deploy the next smart contract? In some cases, for example, if the car manufacturer who stores digital IDs of a car will be hacked, that's bad. But it can actually, they can actually create a new version with a new smart contract and they are good to go, because they don't store that much value. However, if you store, I don't know, Ethers, which is kind of valuable and it's gone, then it's gone. So you have to think about risk management overall. I mean exactly for this reason we actually build some set of smart contract templates inside data which are actually audited. 

So you don't have to build your own from scratch. Of course, if you want features we don't have in those templates then you have to go to our GitHub and you can play with them by yourself. But then actually the risk is yours.

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Francesco Ciulla 

Nice. So there are something called contra security audits so you can actually use this. Just I say to have a bare minimum. Again, if we want to keep going with the 90s analogies, if we only had just HTTP, I think we can say that the web was less secure. Can we say this? It was pretty open. It was kind of a blockchain thing. It was open to everyone. Everyone can see everything. Open, but in a better sense, like say open source is good, but that was open in a very bad way. Like it was too much power. Even the private information and that, but I mean, I think the security is something that people still have t and I think that now websites are more secure in a sense and blockchain is just some years behind. This is a moment where developing something with blockchain is probably harder. I think that in five years it will be in some ways easier also thanks to what you are doing. So we are likely to accelerate. Yeah, of course. I really believe this, that we are trying to accelerate this process, which is the hardest part. 

I really, really enjoyed this episode. We have already crossed the 45 minutes. I don't know how this was possible, to be honest. I’m really happy and enjoyed it. These are also people here. 

So I want to try this. We can also organize a space, so we can make a live stream when I test this live, I'm very fond of like, doing things like making a fool of myself, but also having some people in the audience, maybe you can come and help me in the chat. So maybe, let's see. We can organize something. 

Let me bring something up just before the close, I think I saw that something popped up - a funding round am I wrong? I think you are too humble, Jiri. So tell me more about your success. 

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Jiri Kobelka

You can say because so, you know, given the traction we have and given the way how developers love Tatum and, you know, given the fact that actually a Tatum accelerated About 2,500 times in 12 months, we actually succeeded to raise about forty one point five million dollars in our funding round. You can read about it and you know, if you've searched for Tatum and funding, you will find something for sure. And, you know, we basically hope to use these funds to build more for developers and to help developers better, to provide better support, better training, also better experience. So, yes, that's exactly it. 

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Francesco Ciulla 

Just Google this stuff and you will find it. And I mean, we have to be careful because people are super skeptical about blockchain, so they can say maybe they're just lying to get some more people in the audience. So this is true. Please keep going. 

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Jiri Kobelka

We don't have tokens. So this is actually a normal raise, normal funding round, equity round. We found actually amazing investors who are all about developer experience and basically being helpful to developers. We love them and they love what we do. Which is not normal. Like, you know, if you go to the Web3 funds, they would like to sell tokens so they can, you know, they can go up and then normal developers, normal funds would like to just, you know, sell it. So go for monetization, right? But in this case, I love it because it's a great fit for us and we will probably publish more about how we found those investors and how we would recommend others to do the same. 

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Francesco Ciulla 

Yes, nice. Nice. Nice. Amazing. So I left, I left the link. So Jiri it has been a really, really great episode. I hoped we shed some light on Tatum. On how you can use it. And yes, yes, let's see, let's see in the coming days, I'm getting very interested. I think all the people that I have been talking with are super kind, a great community. I have to explore more, but for now everyone is super kind. I mean really amazing, people, I want to deep dive further into that and yes, Jiri, let's end this first episode. And if you want to leave, if you want leave a message, especially to developer to wrap this up. 

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Jiri Kobelka

Thank you. Yeah, I mean, guys, I mean, you are more than welcome to try. Also if you feel like, you know, signing in, it's free, you will get access to all the blockchains we support, the Discord community. If you don't like something, tell us! We love that. I mean, if you love something, share that. If you don't like something, share that as well. If you miss some guide, for example, if you can't understand something, that's our fault. Tell us. Thank you for that. And, you know, also if you are around Miami, and I'm based in Miami, so if you are around, let me know. I’m happy to meet. 

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Francesco Ciulla 

Nice. I've been in the US two times this year, one of the New York one for San Francisco. I've never been to Miami, but I'll take this invite very seriously. This has also been recorded on a video, so I can also take this and say, did you say that? Did you remember that you said this? So at the right moment. 

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Jiri Kobelka

Make me regret. 

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Francesco Ciulla 

Nice, nice. Really, I’d be really super happy to. Well, you have been a super friendly person. This is the first time that we speak, by the way. So just to give you an idea. So nice and I want to be your friend. And yes, very open mind. And I think that this is the right approach because I think we need more people like you. More open-minded in the blockchain ecosystem. It said I was like the, I would like to say that this is the good face of the Bloodshed world, because, of course, in every ecosystem, there is something good and bad. I would like to focus on the good parts, people trying to build something good. Something cool, especially focused on developers. To be honest, I'm biased on this. I didn't even know that you were a developer. So maybe we are connected in some ways, 

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Jiri Kobelka

Not anymore that much. I would be a very bad developer now. 

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Francesco Ciulla 

I mean, you have to make some choices. This is good that you have that as a background and as a developer. I'm more a developer Advocate than just developer but that's it. We are just evolving doing new things, cool stuff but I think it's cool like that at least try and if there's this scale it's cool. I think the way you can communicate with developer It's like really one on one. You can talk about real stuff for example real framework. That's amazing. Perfect, we are done for today. Let's keep in touch, we left the links in description. 

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Jiri Kobelka

Perfect. Thank you so much.

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Francesco Ciulla 

And again,  see you next time. This is a series of episodes when I interview people from the tech world in a very informal way, about stories, content creators. 99 % of the times we have people from the development world, the tech world and I really enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much and bye everyone.